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The bail outs are not free market capitalism, that's fascism to have the government dictate the market. Don't tell me it divides the rich and the poor. 50% of the American GDP is from small businesses - Fortune Magazine Not to mention majority of America is middle class, there are more suburbs then any other form of society in America. Middle class to me sounds balanced, there isn't a majority of lower or upper class, only a select few in population. In free market capitalism the consumers dictate what they want to buy, the businesses can't survive unless they satisfy what the consumer wants to purchase. With the bail outs the government chose to do ruined the free market, the consumers dictated they don't want cars from GM, the government intervened and bailed them out. In a free market capitalist system, that company would go out of business, and a more efficient business would move in that territory and do a better job. Bailing out GM will come back to haunt us if it fails again, it will mandate another bail out or bankruptcy. The banks them selves aren't truly a free market. They are mandated by the government with so many regulations they lose their freedom to choose what to do. The Community Reinvestment Act which Fannie Mae in 1992 was invested in crashed later at the end of the Bush Term in 2008. That's 18 years difference in time. Home Mortgage loans take time to pay off. If you give loans to people that have bad credit obviously they're a hazard to possibly repay it back. Banks where mandated by the government to give out the loans to people that didn't qualify. Not discrediting banks being greedy they where, but it was the bureaucracy that enabled banks to have bad practice. - Read the History The regulations banks under went with all the changes and enabling them to give bad loans is the reason we feel this 18 years later. Most peoples home loans take longer then 18 years to pay off. Giving them to people that didn't qualify makes it even more dangerous, with the housing market devalued the banks got the homes back with a lower value of the origional loan, cooping an even bigger loss since they can't sell it back. It's not free market capitalism to bail out the banks, and it wasn't free market capitalism for the government to regulate banks on how they distribute home loans. The government made the mess, and it's the tax payer that suffers. This isn't free market capitalism. I just want to make sure you realize free market capitalism doesn't involve government regulation/interference. If you mention things like the FDA and FCC, those don't dictate what company's can sell their product at or anything, that's for safety purposes, it will effect a company's cost but they will just push it to the consumer, regulating the cost they put to the consumer will damage their ability to independently function in the free market. So don't bash a system you probably know nothing about. It really upsets me people watch Michael Moore's movie and think that's capitalism. Bail outs are not Free Market Capitalism, it's government interference which is fascism.
Sakata Gintoki: Wow you're pretty ignorant, the people in other countries wouldn't have jobs in their country if it wasn't for the US providing them. They would be killing each other and be unproductive. In any state where there is no employment, which can be a country like Somalia or even the great depression. It was and always will be out of order since there is no production, everyone will just kill each other and constantly be at war. There is no wealth generated. When employment happens, production increases causing wealth to be generated, and it's peaceful. Government housing projects have the highest crime rates in America for a reason that is parallel to unemployment.
Crunch: Free Market Capitalism hasn't existed since FDR, his socialistic ideals make Americans dependent on the government. The more dependent on the government one becomes the less independent they become. Causing them to demand the government takes care of them. This is why we have health care reform, Medicare is costing America too much money each year, Obama is going to end Medicare and merge it with his new plan. It's going to keep adding to our debt. I'd rather disable all government aid. Not allow doctors to be sued by Lawyers. Then sit back and watch the Doctors compete against each other for patients. There would be so much competition doctors would force each other to lower prices. Just like fast food when McDonalds introduced the dollar menu. Everyone else had to have a value menu because they where getting killed. The consumer will always win.
Sakata Gintoki: Wow you're a whiny little blamer, do you understand everyone has the free will to choose what to do with their lives? You can't blame the employer when the employee willingly works there. You can't blame tobacco companies for people who smoke and get cancer since the individual should of known better. You're discrediting the individuals right to choose what they want to do. You blame others for the individuals fault and sole choice they made on their own. You can't blame someone when the individual chose to do it. No one is forcing anyone to work any where, unless it was a totalitarian state and mandates they must. That isn't the case in Free Market Capitalism. The Employees can picket and not work there, if they picket and they get fired and replaced by others, it obviously tells everyone that the work environment must not be that bad if others still want to work there.
Matthew D: Middle Class is not defined by how much money you have, since the cost of living per state is different. Middle Class homes in So Cal cost 500k, if you took 500k to Alabama you could live in a mansion. The upper class homes here are valued from 900k and up in So Cal. You can't live in a big house here. It depends on where you live and what the cost of living is. All suburbs are defined as middle class. Government housing projects are lower class, and the upper class are the few rich that live in areas the average person can't afford. Most homes in America are affordable for the average American depending on which state you are in. Real Estate is about location, saying a value determines middle class is stupid, because 500k in so cal isn't worth much compared to Alabama. It's about each location and what the norm is.
AgriCult: I know who George Orwell is, he is an author of a book 1984 which was a prediction of how totalitarianism would spread. I know what his philosophy is. Second I want to say that Hitler was a Fascist, Fascism is two things. 1. The cause of race superiority. 2. The merge of corporations and government I for one see number 2 clearly happening right now in our American society. 61% of GM is owned by the US Department of Treasury. It's damaging the system America was built upon. The fore fathers wanted a small government, we are constantly stirring away from it, and I don't want to have a government that is parallel to the king of England. If the government today owns many companies and the king of England taxed high percentages, what difference does it make. Either way the form of government generates a high revenue through ownership or taxation. I really dislike this, all governments can do is go bankrupt, we see it with the USSR, Nazi Germany, and with us being 11 trill debt.
Remmycool: due to lack of comenting space I am allowed I will keep this short. I agree with everything you said, if the world was a free market system America's value would decrease. I don't mind that, I am not about superiority of currency, I am for the innovation free market capitalism has offered the world. I love it and it makes every bureaucrat look like a selfish dictator that wants the wealth through taxation. I agree with your comparison of Zimbabwe and them being millionaires. Of course not everyone can be a millionaire, it would just be inflation and the value would be even more useless. The problem is people see the rich and think that they're selfish. The belief of that is preposterous since the rich generated that wealth through smart investments. Every society there is a rich class, either a dictatorship/government or the people who choose to make innovative ideas in our democratic republic society. I hate the witch hunts people have on successful people.
Aidan: Well for starters I agree with you that the bail outs saved capitalism since it enables banks to give loans to businesses for what ever purpose they need it for. How ever I disagree that you will believe a government report on a government program they allowed. I see a bias there considering if they disagree with their own intended policy it will make them lose credibility, Americans will lose trust in them and no one would ever want something like this to happen again. To push this point even further look at the cause and effects of other programs. Social Security's cause is to allow you to be financially secure by the government past age 65, yet people past 65 still work and aren't retired. Welfare sounds nice to help people in poverty, yet those people become dependent on the program and always will be in poverty. There is no incentive to become independent and not depend on the government anymore. I can go on and on, but I hope you get the point, plus I have no more space
X x: You do realize oil companies face a major restriction by the government of where they can drill. If oil companies could drill any where and have a massive quantity the price of it would lower. Gas would be much cheaper if it was accessable by oil companies to drill any where. The government restricts oil companies to drill any where. So oil companies must buy it from foreign distributors like Canada, and the tariff they pay to ship it here adds to the cost of production. Due to scarcity and the tariff cost, the oil companies pass these burdens to the consumers. Otherwise they would eat a massive loss and go out of business. Again that's government regulation ruining the free market ability of oil companies drilling where ever they want. Gold is expensive because of the scarcity it holds as a natural resource. Same reason why you won't pay money for dirt since it is every where it's so common it doesn't hold a value.
Before Britain and America forced their economic system onto the world, they weren't poor. Asia and Africa and South America were doing West Little River without us. The problem is that we opened up their markets to our investors and consumers, took everything of value, bought their corporations and governments and turned them into dependents. Wealth is relative. There is no such thing as "absolute wealth." In Zimbabwe, everyone's a millionaire, but their money is worthless. The basic law of inflation dictates that in a capitalistic society there always has to be poor people, and usually a lot of them. What America has done is export the physical labor overseas and keep the management over here. Companies like Nike, which are notorious for manufacturing their goods in third-world countries, nevertheless employ many well-dressed light-skinned American professionals to run things. And the reason America is failing is that the world is realizing that they don't need us to do that for them anymore. India's engineers are better than ours. Japan is the world leader in technology. Germany makes the best cars. All America has is an ego and debt. Unrestrained free market capitalism will eventually and inevitably lead to a better richer future- for the rest of the world. Not America, though. Americans will realize quite quickly that their entire economy (yes, even small businesses and entrepreneurs) can only survive because of the exploitation done by a few big corporations. Look at what happened to Michigan when the auto industry soured. Imagine what will happen to New York when investors start using foreign banks to do their trading. Imagine what will happen to California when Hollywood wilts under the weight of the internet. America's only viable option is to protect itself. End free trade with poor countries. Put limits on outsourcing. Crack down on tax havens. Letting the market decide the future will only guarantee that the future will be Asian.
Neoliberalism gets a bad rep because of its track record accross the globe. It has delivered low levels of growth compare to the periods of more restrained capitalism and it has percipitated a string of financial crises from America to Britain, to latin america, to asia, to russia and back to america again and than all over the world The bailouts saved free markets though. Because if at least the banks weren't bailed no-one would be able to loan to those small bussiness. The credit which the market vitally needs would run out. This is not a case of survival of the fittest. There was no fitter force to replace the collapsing banking system: to deliver better services. Except perhaps if they were allowed to collapse a state loaning agency to make up for the huge hole in the market. While GM is not as important but again it wasnt being replaced and holding it together helps keep aggregate demand higher and thus stimulating the economy. Its silly and alarmist call the bailouts 'facism'. I'd even go so far to say its politically irresponsible to muddy a debate with the word unless you can actually show thats what will happen. I think if the banks failed and world economy collapsed then there would be a renaissance of far right political parties.That would be the quickest root to facism. The CRA happened a long time before the housing boom and the flurry of subprime mortgages in the 2000s. CRA loans are also less likely to bad debts according to government studies. It was clearly ignited by the collapse of a previous bubble in the technology sector and the collapse of the russian economy. This laid the ground for it. Along with the slashing of Interest rates by Greenspan to stop a recession at this time. Unregulated lending agencies set up outside the regulatory net and did the dirty work for banks. The idea the capitalism never faults lead to idiotically risky investments. So what if one subprime mortgage goes belly up they though they could simply sell it on in the booming economy. Little did they know it would all happen at once. And there is a point to the anger felt against the bankers that were so irresponsible with peoples money and now that the party is over the taxpayer is cleaning up the mess. Knowing that these people are getting away with it and not being punished. Why not be angry at the lack of regulation to whip these agencies into shape and stop them lending out faulty laons. Interest rates or none. Regulation or none. Bankers and investor have proven unable to asses risk. Finally while the middle class may produce a lot of wealth that doesnt mean that it recieves the income from this. Real wages in America have been declining. Profit ratios rising and reckless casino investment alongside this.It probably recieve a portion of it. But the more liberal the country. The more likely there is to be division in society. The countries that are known as anglosaxon have the higher rates of inequality and the lower rates of social mobility(movement between classes). So its hard to see how this doesnt constitute a more class divided society. ------------------------------------ This wasn't the opinion of a couple of politicians it was a study done by the fed. It was dont by none other than a conservative economist: a graduate of the Chicago School. If anything he would be biased in the other direction. Other than this if it was found that politicians were meddling in studies to get better results they would indeed lose credibility as it would be a political scandal. Also while governments like to lie to the public it would be suicide for them to commission false and biased studies and base policies on this. Because they could so easily go wrong being based on false information. Also ideologically we might say that welfare excluded people and puts them in poverty. But the higher levels of inequality and low levels of social mobility in countries lacking generous welfare shows that cutting welfare actually causes more poverty. and intergenerational poverty traps.(Although Im open to the idea that welfare needs to be tweak and purged of moral hazard.)
No one is blaming capitalism for the recession. No one is saying capitalism leads to expensive health care. Recessions happen, as business cycles are quite normal. Sometimes they are deeper than others because of specific circumstances, like the ones we have now. But they will always take place. History teaches us that government serves as a referee to business activities, which sometimes does take advantage of ethical openings. (Remember how we had to write child labor laws a century ago?) In fairness, you probably have to admit that a little more oversight over the banking and housing industries last year would have been a good idea. It took massive government intervention to prevent a full-blown depression. And the FDA was a reaction to abuses more than a century ago. Anyone could come along and fake false claims about drugs. Is this really what you want?
It's "bad rap" On your first point" "The bail outs are not free market capitalism, that's fascism to have the government dictate the market." "Following World War II, the word fascist has become a slur throughout the political spectrum. In contemporary political discourse, some adherents of political ideologies on both the left and right wings of the political spectrum associate fascism with their political enemies, or define it as the opposite of their own views. Some argue that the term fascist has become hopelessly vague over the years and that it is now little more than a pejorative epithet. George Orwell wrote in 1944: The word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else... almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. – George Orwell, What is Fascism?. 1944."
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First it is not free and second it is not capitalism. The markets are fixed by large corp. and prices are not determined by market demands (supply and demand). Last year when gas was $4.00 diesel fuel mirrored low grade gasoline. Diesel today is a good 20 cents less then low octane gas. No rime or reason for that. The media tells you a Gulf of Mexico oil rig was closed for 24 hours because of a storm. That is why my gas prices in California went up 15 cents. People believed it! Hello we can not even use oil or gas products from there because of the nut jobs controlling this state! 24 hours! Yeah! The media says a frost on the southern tip of Florida is the reason oranges have increased 30%. But in California there are so many oranges that they are using earth movers to scoop up the oranges and feeding them to cows! The government tell stores how much the HAVE TO CHARGE for milk produces. They will sue you and close your store down if you charge less. Yeah, free enterprise.
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What is considered 'middle class' in America is not actually middle class. Capitalism is defined as being divided by the capitalists(the owners of the capital) and the workers(everyone else). A petit bourgeoisie exists, these exist as high level managers and such. Though the majority of people who consider themselves middle class in fact are not. EDIT: Wow, not meant to be mean but you seriously need a formal education in these matters.